Osteoporosis Protection for Your Life

Eat to Live Podcast: Osteoporosis Protection

Jenna Fuhrman: Hey, Eat To Live listener. I am here with my dad, medical doctor, and nutritional science guru, Dr. Fuhrman.

Dr. Fuhrman: Thank you, Jen. And I'm here with my daughter Jenna, and we are here for the Eat to Live podcast.

Jenna Fuhrman: That's right. And why I'm calling you a nutrition guru is because you were talking to me about a lot of studies on our topic today, which is osteoporosis.

[00:01:00] And I love when you get all doctor on us, so I feel like we talked about medications when we were prepping for this episode, we were talking about lifestyle exercises that you can do to reduce osteoporosis, and even diet that helps. So I'm excited to get into it.

Dr. Fuhrman: Great. And of course, the message here, like everything else, is that people have to be proactive when they're in good shape, when they're younger, to have great health when they get older.

That's our message in general, particularly with regard to osteoporosis and hip fractures. And then we also have a special guest coming in to join us towards the end of the program, correct?

Jenna Fuhrman: Sure, yeah. We do have a special guest here with us, so we'll wait till then to surprise everyone.

Okay, so osteoporosis. I do see it. We get a ton of questions on it, and you actually became a guru on this. You made your own exercise program and you know a lot about osteoporosis. What propelled you to do that?

WATCH: Osteoporosis Protection for Life (4-part video, membership required)

Dr. Fuhrman: Don't you think I know a lot about every kind of health issue?

Jenna Fuhrman: I'm honestly starting to say yes. How do you know so much about everything?  I don't even understand it.

[00:02:00] Dr. Fuhrman: It takes work, right? You have to like study, work, read, prep, right?

Jenna Fuhrman: Yeah. This is where I'm very impressed on all of the research that you do, and how you know the name of every single study. And you even mentioned when we were talking about this episode, a study that you want to even correct.

Dr. Fuhrman: Oh, yeah. Correct. Yeah.

Jenna Fuhrman: So I'm just really impressed by the amount of research you do to make your diet and recommendations.

Dr. Fuhrman: Great. Oh, thanks again.

Jenna Fuhrman: So you decided that osteoporosis was a big problem, through research or because you had patients that suffered from it.

Dr. Fuhrman: Everybody learns, in medical school, that osteoporosis is a major cause of both morbidity and mortality.

People have a spinal collapse or a hip fracture and they could die of a hip fracture in a hospital soon thereafter. It can impart their health very negatively. And it's very high prevalence in our society for women who live as much long as 85 years, the risk of having a hip fracture is 30 percent.

[00:03:00] Which is 10 times the risk of having breast cancer, let's say. So it's really a significant expectation. You're probably going to develop weak bones, and you may fall and have a hip fracture, which could then impact your potential life and result in some major interference with your happiness and health,

Jenna Fuhrman: Absolutely. Yeah. And I remember you telling me also that hip fractures and falls are a huge cause of death—that many people actually die from them.

Dr. Fuhrman: Correct.

Jenna Fuhrman: Like a huge population of the elderly.

Dr. Fuhrman: It's something that we have to really be concerned about and that's why we watch, we don't put rugs in the houses of the elderly, where they can trip over the edge of an a rug—You're having a smooth floor. And there's a lot of safety precautions that people take with footwear.

But in any case, I'm here to talk about the fact that drugs —because Americans use drugs for everything, instead of getting rid of salt out of the diet and eating a healthy diet, they take blood pressure medications. Instead of eating a health, they look for doctors to solve all their issues.

 [00:04:00] Jenna Fuhrman: My doctor friends tell me this, they say people just want a pill, Jenna. So that's what we have to do.

Dr. Fuhrman: Yeah. They want a pill and it doesn't work for osteoporosis.

Because when you take the bisphosphonates and the major one that is very common is called Fosamax, which you've heard of that one. It has an effect to moderately strengthen the cortical bone, which is the exterior coating of the bone, but not the trabecular bone, which is the center of the bone.

So in doing so, shifting growth to the edge of the bone, it can reduce hip fracture rates by a small amount, but it may be increasing risk of mid-femur fracture or the center part of the bone, which has less cortical bone on both sides. And it can cause osteonecrosis of the jaw, which can be a death of the jawbone.

And there's other risks, including risks of the heart, like atrial fibrillation. And it can cause irritation to the esophagus, like esophagal reef—more like gastritis and esophagitis. So then people are taking the bisphosphonates and they can cause problems with their heart, like atrial fibrillation.

[00:05:00] And when you stop the drug, the atrial fibrillation is not going to go away because these drugs last in your system for so long. So it could permanently damage your heart.

Jenna Fuhrman: And atrial fi fibrillation, that's an irregular heartbeat, right?

Dr. Fuhrman: The irregular heartbeat that people have need now heart treatments for,

Jenna Fuhrman: okay?

Dr. Fuhrman: And they may have to be on blood thinners the rest of their life, which then further the risk of having a hemorrhagic stroke or a bleed. Or which the blood thinners can further irritate the digestive tract. And then. If you're taking these drugs that irritate the digestive tract, maybe the doctor puts you on Nexium, Prilosec, these drugs [or] Propulsid, whose who are proton pump inhibitors, which push down suppress acid production, so people don't feel reflux.

And those drugs have a black box warning for increasing risk of heart attacks. But those drugs that suppress acid also increase risk of osteoporosis and create more calcium loss in the urine. Because in a low acid environment, you don't absorb calcium as well and digest protein as well.

So we have—so one drug causes certain risk, and people take another drug for the side effects, and that causes other risks.

 [00:06:00] And when it, when people are on blood pressure medications, acid suppression medication, they're on, they're in bisphosphonates like Fosomax, and it's increased their health problems not solve them.

People don't want to hear the truth. The reality is that your muscles and bones strengthen and weaken together.

And if you have osteoporosis, then you have weak muscles. And people fall not just because of weakness of the bone, they fall because the muscles are weak and the person loses proprioception and balance with aging.

Now us Nutritarians—encouraging people eat a healthy diet—we're trying to encourage people to exercise, to maintain muscle and bone mass, and to keep strength training exercises throughout their whole life, which includes side to side motion with change of direction, kind of like skipping out to one side, stopping and moving back in the other direction.

[00:07:00] We're anticipating the type of falls people make. When they get older and they fall sideways on their hip, and we're actually training them to be able to move sideways and move back  in the other direction quickly, to train the body, to be able to catch itself and build the nerve impulses that you need to change direction to protect against falls, which improves balance and proprioception.

Jenna Fuhrman: Yeah, and as I was doing your exercises—because I even do them too. And I just wanted to point out not only are they good for preventing falls, but they're actually just good for muscle building in general. So I was sweating at the end.

I was heavy breathing and I was really doing those side-to-side proprioception movements, front and back, and the quick changes that really can save the day, if someone is going to fall or hurt themselves.

Dr. Fuhrman: And when you take your foot and you move your foot out to the side or underneath to the side then you are like used to this quick movement. You know how to step your foot out wide. If you feel off balance, your little off balance, you get the foot out wide, you push it out back.

People aren't used to that. They trip. They just go back. They're not used to moving their leg out fast, and so we're practicing that. You know what I mean?

Jenna Fuhrman: Absolutely. It can make all the difference. And also there's people who are so into fitness and there are people that then do zero fitness.

And there's really this happy median that you can fit into, where you're doing these exercises a little bit every day that can save your life.

 [00:08:00] Dr. Fuhrman: So we're talking about daily exercise. And you’ve got to start at mid age. You can't, optimally we're exercising our whole life.

Jenna Fuhrman: Our whole life,.

Dr. Fuhrman: We're maintaining—because we want to maintain good muscle and bone mass with aging.

And then of course, you know the American diet, which is low in minerals and high in junk food. And all the accessory minerals in a Nutritarian diet, and the features of Nutritarian diet help maintain bone strength and bone density with aging.

And let's maybe hit on that maybe for a little bit.

Jenna Fuhrman: Wait. Before we get there, I just want to touch on the, you threw a lot of stuff about medication at us very fast, so I want to make sure I understand everything. Okay. So we're prescribed these medications, or you can be from your doctor that help with osteoporosis and can protect your bones.

But what it sounded like when you said it was that it only protects the superficial layer and that you could still have a severe fracture, but it gives you a little bit of protection, but not as much as you'd like.

[00:09:00] Dr. Fuhrman: Correct. And also the side effect profile isn't worth it. The side effects.

And also, the studies  show that exercise causes more than double the protection against hip fractures compared to taking medications do. So regular daily exercise is twice as effective as medication for protecting hip fractures

Jenna Fuhrman: And you don't have to hurt your heart.

Dr. Fuhrman: Or hurt your digest tract

Jenna Fuhrman: or your jaw.

Dr. Fuhrman: So you don't take those risks. And of course, you add eating right to that.

And the other cause of osteoporosis—of hip fractures— are blood pressure medications that can cause people to become lightheaded. Sleep medications, anti-anxiety, medications and other medications that can cause people to become lightheaded or woozy or so.

In other words, drugs are a major cause of hip fracture besides the fact that benzos and sleep medications and blood pressure medications, and even diabetic medications, all those other drugs also increased risk of hip fracture. So all the things we're doing, getting off the drugs, relying on lifestyle medicine.

It's the real way to go if you want to see true protection.

[00:10:00] Jenna Fuhrman: Is that because the medication causes lightheadedness and you can fall easier or is it because the actual medication is likely to weaken your bones?

Dr. Fuhrman: It's mostly that. It leads to poor balance and lightheadedness. Yes.

Jenna Fuhrman: Which that is hard to deal with if you're off balance or I could, I've seen people just be really wobbly and you want to make sure they're protected because falling can kill you.

It's really scary reality.

Dr. Fuhrman: Yeah. Falling can kill you.

Jenna Fuhrman: Yeah. Okay. Last question on medications is just the blood pressure medication, you also said can contribute to osteoporosis. I just find that really fascinating

Dr. Fuhrman: Because the body sets the blood pressure at a sufficient level to adequately oxygenate the heart and the brain.

But because high blood pressure causes an issue with brain damage and kidney damage, doctors then lower blood pressure to a more protective range. And in doing so, you lower diastolic blood pressure too low, and then the heart and the brain could be under-perfused and therefore you can become wobbly—more wobbly, more lightheaded, more weak, more fatigued. And possibly fall down.

 [00:11:00] Jenna Fuhrman: Yeah. And even for the people that do suffer from, high blood pressure, you can resolve with diet, sleep, there's a lot of natural remedies and even supplements that could help with sleep. Like there are more natural options where you don't have to rely on medication.

Dr. Fuhrman: We try to use the lifestyle medicine, which includes exercise and proper sleep techniques. Meditative or dream—We talk about sleep techniques. And we also talk about what you're saying right now: Some helpful natural therapies that don't have side effects, that aid people without putting them at high risk like drugs do.

Jenna Fuhrman: Yeah. I just want people to know they have options. And they don't have to immediately default to a pharmaceutical drug. Which is important. Okay.

But now we can get to your favorite topic: Diet. So there are specific foods that can help with osteoporosis. And I also want to make sure we touch on the fact that—we were talking about this earlier—Meat eaters think vegans have higher risk of bone fractures. There are certain vegans that think meat eaters have higher risks. So I want to make sure we debunk and find out the what's correct on that.

[00:12:00] Dr. Fuhrman: Let's talk about that. Because that'll help us get into the diet mode. Okay. Because when I wrote the book, Eat To Live in 2004, which means I wrote it in 2002 to be published in 2004.

Which is what's that more than 20, 22 years ago

Jenna Fuhrman: I was 10. Yeah.

Dr. Fuhrman: I wrote in the book that eating meat contributes to weaker bones in osteoporosis, because meat causes a negative calcium balance, which means the acid from digesting meat has to be balanced with basic mineral salts, which leads from the bones. And that calcium dumped into the digestive tract to balance those extra acids are leached in the urine, and the negative balance means you're putting out more calcium than you're taking in is accelerating the rate of osteoporosis.

And I think in the last 20 years that's been proven to be incorrect. Meat does not increase risk of osteoporosis, because even though it causes a negative calcium balance over time, the body adjusts to that balance and starts to hold onto calcium.

And also because people don't digest protein as well as they age, the extra protein from the meat can help build muscle and strength, keep muscle and bone strong. So the overall effect is that meat is not a significant risk factor for osteoporosis like I thought it was, and that the vegan and plant-based community advocates that it is.

[00:13:00] Salt, caffeine, meat, soft drinks all play a small role, but the role is pretty insignificant.

Jenna Fuhrman: The biochemistry does show that there is a calcium deficit or calciums being taken from the bones, from the acid, but then the body's adjusting to a new homeostasis.

Dr. Fuhrman: The body adjusts over a few over weeks to a new homeostasis of the higher animal protein, higher acids, and it starts to hold onto more calcium in over time.

Dr. Fuhrman: So the long-term effects hasn't really borne it out that meat eaters have higher rates of hip fracture than the vegans, let's say. So in the Seventh Day Adventist study, we see some of the—

Jenna Fuhrman: Oh yeah. That study—

Dr. Fuhrman: I was just going to mention, Seventh Day Adventists first.

That it's not one of the risks that vegans have, is osteoporosis, or meat eaters have,—there's not much difference in the two groups between osteoporosis. In the Seventh Day Adventist study, in the EPIC-Oxford study in the UK—that study showed vegans had a significant increased risk of hip fracture, like 30% more hip fractures, then did meat eaters. So that vegans were the higher risk.

[00:14:00] The people in the meat-eating community blaming a vegan diet on causing osteoporosis, and the people in the plant-based community saying a meat-based diet causes osteoporosis.

The reality is that a vegan diet can contribute to osteoporosis if it's low in calcium and low in protein. And we analyzed the diet that was used in the EPIC-Oxford trial and the other—there was another trial that also showed, a bridge study showing more hip fractures in vegans.

And clearly the protein content was about 10% of—about 45 grams a day of protein on an average 1600 calorie diet. And I put together a 1600 calorie diet. I posted this on a blog article. I used like a starch-based diet. Because there are certain parts of the vegan, plant-based community that advocates a starch-based diet, heavy in potatoes or rice or corn or whatever it is.

And I took one of those sample diets, with oatmeal and whole grains, breakfast a bean burger and vegetables and potatoes and carrots and peas and just a real, a relatively standard starch-based diet.

[00:15:00] And I compared that to a Nutritarian diet and the Nutritarian diet had double the protein from 45 grams, which the starch-based vegan diet was similar to the diet of the protein content and the calcium content of the vegan diet used in the EPIC-Oxford study.

So they're getting about 500 milligrams of calcium a day, and about 45 grams of protein a day. 40 grams of protein, 44 grams of protein a day. And a Nutritarian diet gave 85 grams of protein a day, and over 1,000 milligrams of calcium a day. Double the amount of protein and double the amount of calcium for 1600 calories.

That's 85 grams of protein on 1600 calories. That's a high protein diet.

Jenna Fuhrman: Where is all this protein and calcium coming from?

Dr. Fuhrman: It's coming from the fact that we eat green vegetables every day, and we eat beans every day, and we eat nuts and seeds every day. It's that, it's the combination of the greens, the beans, and the nuts and seeds.

 [00:16:00] You put a little nuts in the meal, half an ounce to an ounce of nuts. You put three or four tablespoons of beans in the meal, you put a little soybean at dinner, you put a little —it makes a difference. You put a little sesame seeds in your salad dressing. And woo, you've just exploded the calcium and the protein.

And this is what—I think that what people who listen to our podcast regularly are learning is that we do recommend eating a diet that's more protein adequate—but we want to get it from plants. Because animal products increase all causes of death, meaning cancers and heart attack risk and death, and plant proteins will reduce cancer deaths and heart attack death. And we can get adequate protein, even if our diet is totally vegan, if it's well designed.

And that's why a Nutritarian diet is not really a whole foods plant-based diet. It's more precision. There's more precision in it. It's not a Blue Zone Diet. In other words, it's a specific type of a plant-rich diet, and the type means that we're really utilizing foods that have been prone to enhance longevity and to enhance bone muscle growth with aging.

[00:17:00] And what I'm saying here is that the added element here is soybeans. Even though we're using a variety of beans, we do have some soy in our diet, probably five days a week. That's a little soybean or edamame with a lunch salad or a little bit of tofu with dinner with something.

So we do have it about five days a week or four days a week, but we're still getting other beans in the diet as well. And the combination of some soy with other beans dramatically pumps up the protein. And the soy protein is unique, because soybean is rich in isoflavones, particularly genistein, which is an estrogen mimicker.

And that means it binds to the estrogen receptor, the EP1 receptors on the breast and prostate, blocking the receptor from being stimulated by estrogen. It attaches to it but blocks it, so you get less estrogen stimulation of breast and prostate tissue, lowering risk of breast and prostate cancer because doesn't fit into the receptor all the way. But on bones, it hits the EP2 receptor and stimulates it, strengthening muscle and bone mass with aging.

 [00:18:00] So it has the beneficial effect on the bones. So it's almost as if the Nutritarian diet, which is best designed for longevity, is also best designed for bones, and doesn't have the drawbacks of the typical vegan diet that you see in these studies.

Jenna Fuhrman: The estrogen—Is that initially why soy had a bad reputation for breast cancer and prostate health? Is it because they weren't fully understanding the biochemistry of what was happening to the estrogen?

Dr. Fuhrman: Yes. There's millions of dollars spent on anti-vegan eating or anti-plant-based eating, because the dairy and meat and sugar industries, the food industry, is tremendously powerful. And there's a lot of money to spend to try to lay blame on soy or to try to direct people away from wanting to eat plant-based.

So there's a tremendous amount of money—so they try to make soy out to be a villain. And one way they can make soy out to be a villain is say: It's not good for breast cancer; it stimulates the breast; it's too estrogenic.

[00:19:00] Where it's really not. That's a fallacy. It's actually anti-estrogenic.

Jenna Fuhrman: I was going to say, you are not only clearing up the confusion but double down. And you're saying that it's actually protective against breast cancer.

Dr. Fuhrman: I'm say it's dramatically protective against breast cancer.

Jenna Fuhrman: Yeah.

Dr. Fuhrman: And by listen to this though, the soy isoflavones are antagonists to the aryl hydrocarbon receptor in cancer cells.

Cancer cells over replicate aryl hydrocarbon receptors, which are stimulated by certain foods, particularly the tryptophan and methionine in meat, which makes cancers more invasive and spread. The isoflavones antagonize, which means they cause cancer cells to die and not replicate, and they prevent replication of cancer cells.

Dr. Fuhrman: And by the way, soy does have tryptophan like meat does, but because it's so low in methionine and so rich in these isoflavones that have anti replicative effects, they overall have a negative effect on cellular replication in cancer cells.

 [00:20:00] Jenna Fuhrman: So soy is definitely the good guys, but you see a lot of soy protein isolate, some Satan— isn't that a very processed version of soy? Are these things that we should watch out for as well?

Dr. Fuhrman: Seitan is made from weak gluten. It's tempe that's made from soy.

Jenna Fuhrman: Oh, tempe is great. That's the least processed form.

Dr. Fuhrman: It's just fermented soybean, so it's good. Seitan is like wheat gluten. I don't usually recommend that.

Jenna Fuhrman: What about soy protein isolate? Because I feel like…

Dr. Fuhrman: it's too high. It's too high in protein.

Jenna Fuhrman: Okay.

Dr. Fuhrman: It's too high. The isolated protein can raise IGF -1 almost like you're eating meat—too high. So this gives you a little bit of that extra protein that could be—or pushing you over the edge—when you have too much high biological protein.

Then these hormones might promote cellular replication and promote cancer. So that's where we're in that sweet spot. The ideal amount of protein, predominantly plant protein, not animal protein, but still paying attention to protein adequacy, especially with aging.

Which means a macrobiotic diet: Not enough protein.

Which means a fruitarian diet or raw food diet with too much fruit: Not enough protein.

And even a starch based diet— lots of potatoes and rice: Usually not enough protein unless you put enough beans in—and only unless you keep the rice and potatoes relatively [low]. Still not ideal levels for, and certainly you're missing on the protective phytochemicals and phytonutrients that protect cancer and protect the bones maximally.

[00:21:00] So we're saying here a Nutritarian diet. These diets may be better than the average American diet. They're not terrible, but they're not in the same ballpark as a Nutritarian diet, where we try to look at every aspect, to idealize every aspect of the diet for all diseases.

Jenna Fuhrman: So you're saying the research shows that there's a sweet spot for protein as well?

That more is not always better. Because that is not something that you hear very publicly.

Dr. Fuhrman: The research conclusively shows that the amount of protein, and I'm saying a Nutritarian diet gives us 18% to 20% calories of protein. It's a huge amount of protein.

I'm saying that the type of protein matters here, that we want to get most of our protein or all of our protein from plant foods, because what the studies show is as you get more of your protein from animal products, it increases all-cause mortality, and as you get more protein from plant foods, it actually enhances more lifespan.

And I think that's the message. Why do plant proteins enhance lifespan? That's another time for another podcast.

Jenna Fuhrman: We did that already.

[00:22:00] And we know they're rich in phytonutrients and have other ways they protect lifespan besides the protein content. But we're able to achieve protein adequacy, to maximize bone mass and muscle mass with aging if we do a plant-based diet, is the point,

Jenna Fuhrman: And it does sound like you are marrying G-BOMBS more and more. Because when you're saying what makes a Nutritarian diet unique is that you eat the greens, the beans, the nuts and seeds. So these are all foods that you call your G-BOMBS.

Dr. Fuhrman: Beans, greens, nuts and seeds, onions, all these things.

Jenna Fuhrman: aAnd also I wanted to point out, you made the term Nutritarian because you specifically didn't want to just say it's vegan, because you could be a variety of vegan diets.

Dr. Fuhrman: The term “whole food, plant-based” that people are using, which means like a healthy vegan diet. Yeah. It's still not adequate.

It's still an inadequate designation. What does plant-based mean anyway? Does it mean 100% or 90%? And what is “whole foods”? Your diet could be—mostly you could eat bananas all day long. It's not with enough precision to design a diet that has the full diversity of nutrients that leads to cellular density, that is going to lead to slowing the aging process and of course lower in…

 [00:23:00]  So in other words, it's much more precision—a Nutritarian diet. It’s critical to understand these concepts that prolong human lifespan. Because—and speaking of prolonging human lifespan and these concepts, maybe we should bring our guests in soon.

Jenna Fuhrman: Soon. Not yet. I have more questions. Nice try.

When you say precision, what makes a Nutritarian diet unique, I like to say, is because you're telling people the foods that you should be eating, that you should prioritize, because they fight cancer, reverse heart disease, reverse diabetes, do all these things, and have miraculous healing capabilities.

So I think it's really important to just reflect on [that]. You outline exactly how to extend your lifespan and live better.

Dr. Fuhrman: And people, Nutritariana generally understand the skeleton of the diet, of what they're supposed to eat each day. And to get it, to get that variety of these protective foods in, they're not just eating haphazardly.

The Blue Zones give you some extension of lifespan, maybe five to eight years, but they're not giving you 20 years of potential increased life from like a Nutritarian diet does. So it's much more, it's using nutritional science to develop a result that's much more impressive.

[00:24:00]  Jenna Fuhrman: Okay. So I just, this was my one question: Greens. Which greens are you talking about that are super high in calcium and protein, and can help us with osteoporosis?

Dr. Fuhrman: That's actually a good question because the greens that are highest in oxalic acid,

Jenna Fuhrman: that's what I wanted to ask.

Dr. Fuhrman: Yeah, you don't absorb calcium from them much. The greens that are—so you shouldn't consume more than 25% of your green intake from spinach, beet tops, parsley and Swiss Chard, too high oxalic acid.

But lettuce has almost, no oxalic acid. Lettuce is the superfood we're always talking about. And cruciferous vegetables are relatively low in oxalic acid and the food with the highest amount of calcium per calorie—of biologically available calcium to calorie is bok choy.

Dr. Fuhrman: Which is a cruciferous vegetable.

Jenna Fuhrman: Wow. I eat a lot of bok choy.

Dr. Fuhrman: So cruciferous vegetables are super high in calcium. And green vegetables—broccoli, super high in calcium and we get a lot of—also nuts and seeds and beans also give us a lot of calcium, too.

 [00:25:00] Jenna Fuhrman: I make a great Thai soup, and I always add bok choy to that, so I feel really good about that.

What I wanted to just get a little bit further explanation on is the spinach thing, because I feel like spinach has a reputation for being really high in calcium, but you're saying that they have this oxalic acid problem. And you actually caution people from eating too much spinach often. I hear you say it all the time.

Dr. Fuhrman: We don't want people to eat a spinach salad as their main salad every day,

Jenna Fuhrman: But if that's the only green you're adding to your smoothie, which I feel like is common. Yeah.

Dr. Fuhrman: But if that’s the only green you're adding to your smoothie—that's because raw [spinach] greens have a higher level of oxalic acid than cooked spinach does when it's raw. And for some people have a tendency towards kidney stones, it puts more calcium pooling in the kidney because of the high oxalic acid content.

But even if you don't have a problem with kidney stones, and will never have a genetic tendency towards kidney stones, you still shouldn't make raw spinach the major part of your salad.

It still should be a minor part. However, spinach is one of the foods that have powerful anti-cancer and lifespan-enhancing effects. So it has powerful anti-cancer effects, so we are purposely putting in a person's diet for the anti-cancer benefits. But just not as the major source of greens.

[00:26:00] Jenna Fuhrman: Okay. Just diversify your greens. Okay. Thanks for clarifying.

Dr. Fuhrman: Sure.

Jenna Fuhrman: So just to summarize because we are getting near the end. It is: Do these exercises.

Make sure you practice not falling

Dr. Fuhrman: Right, and also I utilize, I reverse osteoporosis—even with people with a high T score on a DEXA scan—by using a Power Plate machine or a weighted vest, often both with the exercises. And we use the Power Plate machine, which is a vibrational platform, and it actually vibrates left and right, front and back and up and down simultaneously. And exercising on the Power Plate—

Jenna Fuhrman: And it feels yeah.

Dr. Fuhrman: And when doing strength exercise and pulling and squatting and doing these exercise on the Power Plate, I've had clinical, documented results, having people reverse severe osteoporosis and building backbone again by combining the diet with these exercises on the Power Plate.

And they have these places you can go, like OsteoStrong and Bio Density places where they actually have Power Plate and computerized exercises people do, but we show them how they can do it in their own house.

[00:27:00] They can do these strength-building exercises that can reverse bone loss and build back strong bones.

Jenna Fuhrman: I actually have a friend who works at a Power Plate studio where they do a fitness class using the Power Plate. But I used the Power Plate last week, I swear for the first time. Because I think it doesn't apply to me, but now I'm realizing: Do preventative stuff. You do a couple squats for 30 seconds—that's it. It takes, you don't have to work out very long on it.

Dr. Fuhrman: I usually put it on for two minutes and I'll go, I'll do the toe touches to the side, side to side. Then I'll step on and off the machine and hop on and do that for a minute and a half. Then I'll do another exercise for two minutes, and then I'll grab onto the straps and I'll do squats, pulling on the straps as hard as I can.

I'll stay on the Power Plate for 10 or 15 minutes, exercising on it.

Jenna Fuhrman: Okay.

Dr. Fuhrman: But then I'll only do that like once a week.

Jenna Fuhrman: Oh, that's it.

Dr. Fuhrman: Yeah. Just once a week, because it's so hard on your legs, that after that 10 or 15 minutes it needs to recover. Then I don't want to—actually, the next day, I'm not going to go for a bike ride or go skiing.

I'm not going to do it right before I go skiing. I'm going to take three or four days of rest after a hard Power Plate workout like that.

Jenna Fuhrman: It's not very time consuming though. It's 10 to 15 minutes once a week. But I did this twice last week. Yeah.

[00:28:00] Dr. Fuhrman: Yeah. And I do like one-legged squats on the Power Plate by dropping you one foot off the Power Plate.

And then I do the slow squat with a straight back going up and down, with the machines vibrating all the way down to, That's the one did the rear touches your heel and keeping all the way back up again. That's hard to do. Like a few of those on the…

Jenna Fuhrman: Mom taught me how, and I had so much fun doing it because it was not anything like I experienced before, and it made me feel good.

Like I was doing something to help my bones.

Dr. Fuhrman: Yeah, it builds your bones.

Jenna Fuhrman: Yeah, which is cool. Okay, so the exercises, you have the diet that helps with building strong bones. And then you can't forget building the muscles with the exercises and lastly…

Dr. Fuhrman: And soy, and lastly, the supplements. That we want people to have an adequate vitamin D level, which is a combination of sun and supplements, which means the level should be between 30 and 50, usually 30 and 60. 30 and 50.

And also for those with women who are small with low appetites and can’t eat enough greens, taking a little bit food-based calcium with each meal—not a too because too much calcium can lead to calcifications, and maybe not good for your heart by causing a spike of calcium too high in your blood at one time.

[00:29:00] So we don't want to use standard calcium supplements. Instead, we want to give calcium, food-based calcium in low amounts, like a 100 to 250 per meal once with meals or twice a day with meals to just pump the level of calcium in the meal up a little bit to bring up to the level we get with a healthy diet. Because maybe these women aren't eating 1600 calories or 1800 calories of healthy foods.

Their diet, maybe their diet only has 1200 calories in it. And that's right for them, but their level of green consumption—so we just give them a little extra food-based calcium. So vitamin D, calcium adequacy, protein adequacy from plant protein, and the right exercise is the secret to living long and keeping healthy as you age.

Jenna Fuhrman: With strong bones.

Dr. Fuhrman: With strong bones,

Jenna Fuhrman:  That's right. Very important. Okay. And what I just wanted to say is there are certain nutrients that you say it doesn't matter if we get excess—but calcium is one of those nutrients that you want that sweet spot. So it is really important to have just the optimal level, not too much,

[00:30:00] Dr. Fuhrman: Not to take the high dose calcium, 500 to a thousand milligrams of calcium carbonate, and to be pumping high-dose calcium, thinking it's going to protect against osteoporosis.

Yeah, it doesn't work very well and there's negative effects of taking all that calcium at one time.

Jenna Fuhrman: I found that fascinating. But that's really great tips, and people need to know that if they have osteoporosis, it's not a life sentence—that you can actually take steps to reverse it. And you want to make sure you are not living a sedentary lifestyle.

It's not fun, and it's not good for you.

Dr. Fuhrman: And if they have hip, if they have weak bones, they should work on strengthening their balance and their agility right now to prevent themselves from falling, even if their bones have been weakened. Because you don't have a hip fracture until you fall and smack on your hip.

So even if you have something, you're strengthening your bones, but you're also practicing your agility and your balance exercises too.

Jenna Fuhrman: And it's fun and good for everyone to do, whether they have osteoporosis or not. It's important for protection and a long life, plus it's a little fun. Okay. Yes.

Time for our very, let's invite

Dr. Fuhrman: Our special guest.

Jenna Fuhrman: Our very special guest. We know her and it is.

Dr. Fuhrman: It's my mom, Isabel.

Jenna Fuhrman: My grandma. We'll get set up, okay?

Dr. Fuhrman: We're going to get set up and bring you on with a mic, and you're going to sit next to us and talk to us.

[00:31:00] Jenna Fuhrman: We are back with a very special guest and it is my beautiful grandmother.

So Grandma, you were just telling me you've never been on a podcast before.

Isabel: I have not. This is very exciting for me.

Jenna Fuhrman: Wow. I think you might get famous from this.

Isabel: Oh boy.

Dr. Fuhrman: You've never been on television either.

Isabel: That's correct. I have not. No, but this is a good time because I really want to praise my lifestyle, which has changed, even though I was not too terrible all along. But since I've been, since my eighties, I became a vegetarian. But since I've been in California, I have been a Nutriian vegetarian and have seen a dramatic change in my health. It's unbelievable.

[00:32:00] I am—I never would say this before, but now I'm proud of it: I'm 97 years old. I live alone. I can—I do get a lot of my food from the retreat, which is all Nutritarian. But I cook myself, I clean my house, I play all kinds of games and it's all, I know, due to this change of my life.

I was pretty good starting with my eighties, but when I came here, I really ate not only a vegetarian diet, but the Nutritarian diet. Which I haven't [previously]—unbelievably have improved tremendously.

Dr. Fuhrman: So you are, you're now 97.

Isabel: Yes.

Dr. Fuhrman: But you were eating pretty healthy.

Isabel: I was.

Dr. Fuhrman: In your sixties and seventies. It's not as bad as most people age.

Isabel: That's exactly right.

Dr. Fuhrman: But as you got to be 70, you probably revved it up a little bit. At 80 you revved it up a little more.

Isabel: Yes. You're telling you exactly how it was.

Jenna Fuhrman: How'd you start eating healthy? I know obviously. Grandpa, your dad got you into it. Did he get you into it?

Isabel: Yeah, my husband was—oh, he wasn't scientific like your dad and my son is, but he was into healthful eating. But it wasn't that, it was, honestly, when Joel mentioned to me that it's not how old you are, it's when you get older, you want to be able to enjoy your life, do things, not just be aged, sitting there doing nothing.

[00:33:00] And that's what I attributed my,—I play games. I you drive a car,

Dr. Fuhrman: You drive around and you go shopping.

Isabel: I drive my car, I cook, I clean.

Dr. Fuhrman: You don't race the car. You race the car in the neighborhood, sometimes I think. [laughter].

Jenna Fuhrman:  I do think when people meet you, they are very surprised about not only your physical capability, your mental capabilities. You're smart, you play games. You actually win every game, which is annoying, and it's just how you haven't had to slow down at all and can still drive at 97.

I don't think I know another 97-year-old that drives and you listen to all the laws, you're a good driver, which is great.

Isabel: Thank you.

Jenna Fuhrman: And if there are other 97-year-olds, I want to know if they drive.

Because really, I don't know one which it's just—I think now you said you can speak to your age because it is rare and you want to show people that they don't have to age poorly.

[00:34:00] Isabel: That's really correct. And it's just been fun. And I really get a thrill out of when I go to the retreat and I see these people and I tell them, you keep up your good work, it's worth it for, you'll be here for your family.

And you'll be able to do things. Of course. I can't run around with you guys, which I would love to do. That, I've lost.

Dr. Fuhrman: But you no longer run.

Isabel: Just the run. I can't play paddle ball anymore. But I do, all the things I can enjoy. As much as I can do, I do. And I'm happy to be able to do these things at my age.

Dr. Fuhrman: And I was going to say, what's interesting from the medical standpoint is that when you moved here about five years ago to California, you revved up your health a little more.

Dr. Fuhrman: You were 90, 91. Then when you moved here, now you're 97. When you first got here, you were more fragile than you are now as medically because your blood pressure was more, was uncontrollable.

[00:35:00]  You needed medication to control it. And your creatinine, which is a marker of renal insufficiency, was elevated to about 1.8. It was a higher, so it showed some degree of renal insufficiency around the age of 90. And then in the last five years, I've been pretty much. I shouldn't say shocked, but pleased in a good way.

To see your kidney function has come perfectly back to normal. It gradually—every year you were here, it improved a couple of points, and now it's 0.8. You're in the normal range.

Isabel: Yes.

Dr. Fuhrman: With a good kidney. It's crazy. And you're not needing blood pressure medication like you used to. So you actually improved your health between the ages of 91 and 97, yes, and 96,

Isabel: Amazing. Even to me. Yeah.

Jenna Fuhrman: Would you say you enjoy the food? Has there been a adjustment period where it was hard for you to eat this healthfully?

Isabel: I won't say that I love everything, and they're delicious, delicious. But it's very palatable and I do a lot of everything, and I don't mind it at all. And it's so worth it. That's, the main thing that it's worth it, right?

[00:36:00] Dr. Fuhrman: It's worth it to be here.  It's worth it to be here, enjoying your life, how

Isabel: I’m lucky to be here. I know.

Jenna Fuhrman: Learning how to do Nutritarian cooking takes time to learn, but once you master it, you can really make such a variety of delicious foods.

I do love cooking this way.

Isabel: Yeah. It's not that hard if you learn to freeze. Yes. And that's the secret.

Dr. Fuhrman: So you like half the food you get at the retreat and the other half you make yourself?

Isabel: Yes. Is that pretty much what—yes I get half the retreat and then I still go to the store and shop and cook the vegetarian, Nutritarian way. Not a hundred percent.

Dr. Fuhrman: You pronounce that term Nutritarian perfectly, by the way.

Isabel: Oh my goodness. Thank you.

Jenna Fuhrman: Not vegetarian. Nutritarian.

Dr. Fuhrman: Yeah, Nutri. Yeah.

Jenna Fuhrman: So it's great. And also you have a very important role at the retreat. Do you want to talk about that as Games Master

Isabel: Game Coordinator?

Oh my goodness, yes. Yeah. I just get such a kick out of playing games. And I go to the retreat and I teach them how to play. After all, they have dinner very early and they finish by six o'clock with nothing to do.

[00:37:00] And I've taught them how to play many card games and fun games. And they really appreciate it because it takes up time before they have to go to bed.

Jenna Fuhrman: Yeah. Cool. I do feel like you're the most popular person at the retreat, so that must feel good.

Isabel: I love going because everyone is so nice to me, and I do feel so welcome. Like they really like when I come there.

Jenna Fuhrman: Yeah. My mom says that’s the best part of the retreat too. It’s just meeting all the wonderful people that go through.

Isabel: Yes.

Dr. Fuhrman: Oh, such a bunch of nice people.

Jenna Fuhrman: You like them too.

Dr. Fuhrman: Yeah, you, we develop friends and more people to care about.

Isabel: It's really very special people who come there. They're so interesting and very appreciative, I want you to know. They all tell me—I always ask if they're improving, if they're going along as better,

Dr. Fuhrman: Yeah, they’re appreciative of the fact that they have this opportunity—a place where they could have gone to transform their health.

Isabel: Yes.

Dr. Fuhrman: Yeah, it's true. And we of course, respect, and are blessed, by having people appreciate the work we do.

Jenna Fuhrman: Yeah. Cool. Thanks for joining us.

Dr. Fuhrman: Thanks for joining us. Yeah, thanks for joining us today.

[00:38:00] Isabel: Thank you for inviting me,

Jenna Fuhrman: And in case you missed it, her name's Isabel, and she's a star.

Dr. Fuhrman: Her first time on television!